Coming back to the forum for the first time since my license transfer woes, now sorted thanks to Kilian, I note with glee that a new version of Kairon is in the works, and I'm looking forward to giving it a spin when it becomes available.
My question about the forthcoming feature set (and for that matter the current one in 3.6.x) involves the 11th-harmonic aspects: the undecile and its assorted multiples (sometimes also called the elftile). I have gotten a lot of insight into my own chart and those of my friends by being able to see the quintiles, septiles, noviles, and deciles—but the only other aspects available are the bilin and the tao, neither of which I use (but which I understand might be important to some astrologers; for example I hear Noel Tyl makes a big deal of the tao). So harmonics 1 through 10 and 12 (and I guess a subset of the 24th) are represented.. but not the 11th.
Out of all the harmonics, it seems like the 11th always gets short shrift. I confess to a bit of selfishness here as I personally have a very strong 11th harmonic chart (as do quite a few of my friends, perhaps a very good reason why they're my friends), and of course numerologically 11 is a master number. But having to go to the harmonics function to see all the conjunctions, while nice to have and implemented wonderfully in Kairon, still seems kind of a step removed from being able to see the planets in their actual place in the heavens in the radix, and having a line indicating an aspect drawn to it.
So finally to my question: are the aspects hard-coded into Kairon 3.6, or is a mechanism in place such that they could be edited via plist (à la AstrologerXP)? As I said, I never use either the bilin or the tao, and it would be a treat to be able to swap those out with aspects I actually do use in my studies, and I'm not afraid of editing plists.
Also, will the five 11th harmonic aspects (undecile, biundecile, triundecile, quadraundecile, quintundecile) be incorporated into Kairon 4?
Thanks again for a great product! Looking forward to the next version!
11th harmonic series
- mehemptah
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you asked about two months after i had decided otherwise, now you are putting me to doubt again ![Very Happy :-D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
maybe custom-aspects might be a way to go... allowing to enter the degree and a symbol + color, the orbis is already off the aspects and only with the planets. The only reason to restrict the orbis of an aspect (rather than of a planet) would be to avoid overlapping aspects, yet, with a possible new aspectname every half degree another approach must be taken - so my idea is to list that aspect, which is most exact out of the list of the aspects the user has chosen, beetween those two planets into their orbis it falls
for now i implemented 23 aspects: major & minor, and based on the numbers 5, 7, 9, 10, 15
i could custom-prefill the additional aspects with series 11 and i guess i should not restrict the number of custom aspects?
![Very Happy :-D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
maybe custom-aspects might be a way to go... allowing to enter the degree and a symbol + color, the orbis is already off the aspects and only with the planets. The only reason to restrict the orbis of an aspect (rather than of a planet) would be to avoid overlapping aspects, yet, with a possible new aspectname every half degree another approach must be taken - so my idea is to list that aspect, which is most exact out of the list of the aspects the user has chosen, beetween those two planets into their orbis it falls
![Idea :idea:](./images/smilies/icon_idea.gif)
for now i implemented 23 aspects: major & minor, and based on the numbers 5, 7, 9, 10, 15
i could custom-prefill the additional aspects with series 11 and i guess i should not restrict the number of custom aspects?
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Well.. as mentioned in my initial post, not everyone is as taken up with the harmonic aspects, so I'd wager using the 11th series is admittedly of limited interest.. but up to now these aspects been rather difficult to calculate easily, and many programmers opt for the easy way out and just hard-code the aspects most people are likely to use, usually the Ptolemaic ones and one or two others. One of the things I like about Kairon is that we get some of the harmonic aspects. I respect that there's probably a tradeoff between functionality, ease of use, CPU cycles, etc.MehemPtah wrote:you asked about two months after i had decided otherwise, now you are putting me to doubt again
My thought was that with harmonic aspects (especially those derived from the first twelve harmonics) becoming more of a prevalent focus for astrologers, it just felt strange that 1–10 and 12 would be used, but not 11. YMMV.
maybe custom-aspects might be a way to go... allowing to enter the degree and a symbol + color,
I mentioned AstrologerXP in my initial post, which allows plist editing to add custom aspects. I did edit the plists there, as an experiment, up to the 36th harmonic (yikes). Let's be charitable and say the program became somewhat unwieldy.
Are you describing moiety here, where the planet has the range of influence/orb and not the aspect? That would be an interesting option for some astrologers—I would imagine especially the horary astrologers—in place of using standard orbs attached to aspects. (I'm considering adopting moieties for synastry readings, not that that has anything to do with anything.)the orbis is already off the aspects and only with the planets.
This seems a good place to mention that I love the implementation of being able to filter out all but the strongest aspects—that little slider at the top of the radix and aspect grid windows. (little ASCII hearts) Astro.com allows you to reduce orbs by a global percentage, but doing it your way with the slider feels more correct. I hope that feature isn't going anywhere!
I like that idea.. as a harmonic astrologer I'd be more concerned with the most exact match.The only reason to restrict the orbis of an aspect (rather than of a planet) would be to avoid overlapping aspects, yet, with a possible new aspectname every half degree another approach must be taken - so my idea is to list that aspect, which is most exact out of the list of the aspects the user has chosen, beetween those two planets into their orbis it falls![]()
FWIW I personally use orbs reciprocal to the harmonic, such that if I specify 12 degrees for the conjunction I'd use 6 for the opposition (2nd harmonic), 4 for the trine (3rd), 3 for the square (4th), and so on down to 1 for the semi-*gender* and the inconjunct (12th). I don't often find the kind of aspect overlap of which you speak unless I get into higher harmonics. There again, YMMV.
I think your maths are correct.. my initial post singled out the 24th harmonic as already being present in 3.6.x, but I think I got my maths backwards. Probably a very good reason I'm not a programmer...for now i implemented 23 aspects: major & minor, and based on the numbers 5, 7, 9, 10, 15
![Shocked :shock:](./images/smilies/icon_eek.gif)
See my recollection above re AstrologerXP and how having too many choices made the program awkward to use.. took me a while to edit those plists back down. If lifting the ceiling doesn't come at a cost to performance, it would be worth considering; but after a while (even I had to admit this) there's only so many aspects, or only so many asteroids and calculated points, that any one astrologer is going to find useful in their day-to-day work.i could custom-prefill the additional aspects with series 11 and i guess i should not restrict the number of custom aspects?
Thank you, all the same, for considering this!
- mehemptah
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hehe... also in Kairon 3.6 you can opt for moiety, you do so in the styles section, it is the orbpercent value set for every planet individually. If you intend to try this out, please, have a close look at the corresponding styles tutorial, otherwise you might loose some object glyphs (that one is much, much, much, much easier now in Kairon 4).
What i noticed as one of the worst evils is cluttering the interface with stuff we seldomly need at the cost of what we always need. I will do all to avoid this - after releasing Kairon 3 i got a few hate emails of formerly happy Kairon 2 users... so Kairon 4 is trying to offer the ease of Kairon 2 with even more features of Kairon 3 and further improved graphics (by precision, speed and flexibility): hard to achieve goals, that's why it is still taking some time finishing it.
do you know any symbols and names for aspects based on 11?
would those be the names and variants? (deriven from chemistry)
0: 16,3636 semi-undecile
1: 32.7272 undecile
2: 65.4545 bi-undecile
3: 98.1818 tri-undecile
4:130.9090 tetra-undecile
5:163.6363 penta-undecile
symbol could be a circle with 1-5 short sticks inside unless there are already names and symbols i would go with that visualisation![Very Happy :-D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
(a semi-undecile is a crime - dividing a prime... maybe this makes it even more important? like a total no-go distance between to objects?)
generally i guess the best way is to have standardaspects on harmonic-charts, this gives you more and clearer options than harmonic aspects in a standard-chart - as the nature of the planet and its strength and job in the chart all further modify the aspect which can not be clearly seen by only harmonificating the aspect.
why is 11 not included?
i think for the same reason why we have so few keys in music as compared to the eastern traditions: the west is materialistic from tip to toe and insists on a world with three topics: power, *gender* and health
those who put that to doubt tend to end first on a stake and after they have been silenced this way people start to quote them in their service (killing them a second time by distorting all they ever meant to say).
11 steps out of the system, the individuum can no more be controlled - you are right: a software named Kairon MUST deal with this
thank you!
What i noticed as one of the worst evils is cluttering the interface with stuff we seldomly need at the cost of what we always need. I will do all to avoid this - after releasing Kairon 3 i got a few hate emails of formerly happy Kairon 2 users... so Kairon 4 is trying to offer the ease of Kairon 2 with even more features of Kairon 3 and further improved graphics (by precision, speed and flexibility): hard to achieve goals, that's why it is still taking some time finishing it.
do you know any symbols and names for aspects based on 11?
would those be the names and variants? (deriven from chemistry)
0: 16,3636 semi-undecile
1: 32.7272 undecile
2: 65.4545 bi-undecile
3: 98.1818 tri-undecile
4:130.9090 tetra-undecile
5:163.6363 penta-undecile
symbol could be a circle with 1-5 short sticks inside unless there are already names and symbols i would go with that visualisation
![Very Happy :-D](./images/smilies/icon_e_biggrin.gif)
(a semi-undecile is a crime - dividing a prime... maybe this makes it even more important? like a total no-go distance between to objects?)
generally i guess the best way is to have standardaspects on harmonic-charts, this gives you more and clearer options than harmonic aspects in a standard-chart - as the nature of the planet and its strength and job in the chart all further modify the aspect which can not be clearly seen by only harmonificating the aspect.
why is 11 not included?
i think for the same reason why we have so few keys in music as compared to the eastern traditions: the west is materialistic from tip to toe and insists on a world with three topics: power, *gender* and health
those who put that to doubt tend to end first on a stake and after they have been silenced this way people start to quote them in their service (killing them a second time by distorting all they ever meant to say).
11 steps out of the system, the individuum can no more be controlled - you are right: a software named Kairon MUST deal with this
thank you!